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TwitterWe had a great time at Wednesday’s Momaha meet-and-greet with our new editor, Josie. She has some great ideas for the future of Momaha, and I’m really looking forward to working “for” her, so to speak.
I’ve reported to a few women in my professional career since college. And I have to tell you, working for a woman has not always been a pleasant experience. I hate that I feel that way. In discussing the topic with other bloggers and several friends, it seems I’m not alone.
I’m all for gender equality in the workplace. I want women to receive equal pay for equal work. I wish that more women held high public offices or were captains of industry. But I don’t want to work for them.
Some women seem to have a divide and conquer attitude. Some are condescending when they speak to you. Some don’t want to let you actually do what they’ve hired you to do. And others are too insecure to help you succeed.
I’m already anticipating backlash from this personal revelation. And, please, let me be clear — I don’t think EVERY woman in the workplace is guilty. Unfortunately, it’s been true for some of the women I’ve worked for. And my friends share my sentiments.
I read a pretty good explanation of why women might be harder to work for than men. Jocelyn Giangrande of http://jocelyngiangrande.com/ – a blog dedicated to helping women build confidence and unlock their potential – explains that men and women are socialized differently, and often times, that socialization comes out in the workplace.
Giangrande says men can disagree at work, shake hands and go out for beers. And that some men harbor deeper respect for how well the other man fought the good fight.
Women, on the other hand, tend to hold grudges. (Yikes! It’s a good thing I’m not in charge.) Women let disagreements sully their relationship, and sometimes that plays out in really unreasonable ways.
Have you ever worked for someone who plays favorites, creates conflict or fails to recognize good work?
I decided to tackle this subject now since I haven’t actually worked for Josie. And I’m sure you’re wondering if I have high hopes for my new female boss.
Actually, I do.
I have a pretty good feeling she’s going to be the kind of female leader that just might make me change my view.
Amy Grace is married with two children. Read her Fridays on momaha.com
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Posted by: Lisa Andrews on 01/27/2012 @ 7:25 am:
Oh Amy you know you are going to get it…Lol! Hope you put on a layer of extra skin today. I see your point, but I disagree with you. If course men and women have different characteristics, and different management styles, but women make wonderful leaders. Men are guilty of the very charcteristics you say women have. I have had more men speak to me in a condecending manner than any woman would ever dare to do. Men will shake hands and go out for beers…but not with a woman co-worker…you have to be in the boys club for that! Men are more than happy to keep their thumb on you keeping you down…just as a “bad boss” woman would. Why not just say: Here are the qualitys of a good boss or here are the characteristics of a bad boss…why the sex dexcrimination! I have a feeling I’ll have something to add later…have a good day.
Posted by: Ashli b on 01/27/2012 @ 8:10 am:
I have been verrrry fortunate that my three bosses, all very strong women, have been incredible and actually have each become my friends. I’ve actually never worked for a man though so I have no comparison to draw. Good topic. Excited to see the convo.
Posted by: BDN on 01/27/2012 @ 9:07 am:
I have had poor experiences with each. I have found that male bosses are less understanding about sick children than women bosses. However, I have been ill for the past year and my male boss has been much more understanding than any female boss of mine would have been. I agree with Lisa above, though, this should not be a “sex” matter. It should be good and poor qualities of each. I guess when I think of bad decisions and actions my boss makes, I think to myself “Would I want to work for ME?” And the answer is usually no. I would never want to be in their shoes. A “boss” is a “boss” for a reason, they aren’t supposed to be your friend.
Posted by: Amy Grace on 01/27/2012 @ 11:27 am:
Good point BDN. It’s true, there is a fine line between a boss and a friend. I’ve never thought it a good idea to be your boss’ BFF. It clouds both of your judgement when it comes down to business.
Posted by: Amanda on 01/27/2012 @ 9:10 am:
I disagree with this as well. The most vindictive, grudge holding, throw you to the wolves type of boss I worked with a. . .MAN. There is no woman short of Medea that could compete with him.
There are bad bosses of both sexes but since there is a stereotype that women are more (expletive) bosses you tend to focus on those cases that support your own chosen stereotype and tend to filter out those that do not fit.
An jerk male boss doesn’t seem to draw as much attention as a (expletive) female boss, especially from other women. It seems to be ignorable and even honorable when your male boss is a jerk, but God help a woman if she shows the same characteristics, she’s (expletive) and “catty”.
I am not in a boss position but I often get that attitude from other people, especially women. Yet male counterparts of mine that behave the exact same way are held up as being “so professional” and “balls to the wall” or however you want to put it.
Posted by: Annonymous on 01/27/2012 @ 9:20 am:
OH MY GSOH! What timing your article has! Just yesterday I had a disagreement with my “not so great” female boss. She is typical of your last two examples – doesn’t want to let me actually do what she hired me to do. And too insecure to help me succeed.
Thanks for your timely article! It makes me feel less alone!
Posted by: Melissa C. on 01/27/2012 @ 9:41 am:
I agree with you, just from my experience. I always thought I’d want to work for a woman because she has had babies and gone through all the issues and guilt that come from being a working mom, but in my experience, that’s not at all the case. The women I’ve worked for have a very inflexible style – sort of a “I have done that and paid my dues, it’s your turn” sort of attitude. Maybe it’s just personalities, but the men I have worked for are way more flexible, understanding and supportive of my work and personal goals. I’ve decided I want to work for only men when I’m pregnant because you just have to say, “uhhh I think I need to go home and rest because…” and they interrupt you and say, “Stop talking, just go.” hahaha
On the other hand, I have thought about this a lot and really try to mimic those qualities I admire in my male bosses in my work personality. Like you, I want strong, supportive women at the top.
Posted by: Amy Grace on 01/27/2012 @ 11:26 am:
Totally agree, Melissa. If I were in a position of authority, I would try to mimic the traits of really good bosses I’ve had.
Posted by: Gene Siskel on 01/27/2012 @ 10:13 am:
There’s a great scene right at the beginning at the beginning of, “The Next Three Days” a Russel Crowe movie where Elizabeth Banks waxes on the same topic!
Posted by: KellyG on 01/27/2012 @ 10:17 am:
Hats off, Amy!
My experience absolutely echos yours. For whatever reason, women in the workplace tend to have a strange dynamic between them. They want to be partners, but often because the stakes are high, the positions are limited, and in general, we tend to be caddy, we hold grudges and make each other pay for silly things.
Men are fairly cut and dry. Their expectations for performance are laid out..you either perform or you don’t and are rewarded as such.
There just doesn’t seem to be as much drama…at least, that’s been my experience as a woman in the workplace.
Posted by: Amber on 01/27/2012 @ 10:24 am:
I have to agree with Lisa Andrews. I think the characteristics that you described in female bosses are just as prevelant in their male counterparts. I worked for a major home builder in Omaha, and most management positions were held by men. Out of the 3 male bosses, I really only enjoyed working for, and respected one. I currently work for a company that is 95% female, including the owner and management. They are phenomenal, and welcome my input, and encourage everyone to succeed.
I think that women have it a lot tougher than men when it comes to managing and running a business. If a woman is demanding, take-charge and unapologetic, then she is considered a b****. If a man runs a business the same way, people just say, ‘Well, that’s his management style.”
Posted by: Working Girl on 01/27/2012 @ 10:26 am:
I believe it depends on the woman. I believe if the woman boss is intelligent and confident in that intelligence, there are no problems. However, if the woman boss is insecure in her position and feels “lucky” to be in the position, it creates a more difficult working relationship. In my experience, the former is more the rule. Most women that I have worked for are achievers, who have worked very hard to be where they are. Some, not all, of the men I have worked for had no business being in a position of authority. When I am not working for someone smarter than me – I’m out of there, fast!
Posted by: Lisa M on 01/27/2012 @ 10:27 am:
The problem with some bosses–either male or female–is that they shouldn’t be bosses. They might lack the proper training, expertise, personality, interpersonal skills, organizational skills, etc. And I don’t think this is really a problem between the sexes. Yes, there are characteristics that make men good bosses, but I would argue that there are just as many characteristics that make women good bosses. But you have to be capable of being a good boss (or at least growing in to one) to begin with. Unfortunately, there are a lot of less than stellar managers in the world. I work for a wonderful, thoughtful, and talented man who excels at his work but has no business being in charge of himself, let alone a group.
Posted by: Amy Grace on 01/27/2012 @ 11:21 am:
Great point, LisaM! There are a lot of people (male & female), who are running the ship that have no business running that ship. Being a boss is hard, not a job I would want. But I think it’s the strong suit of the organization to promote people, who really are good leaders.
Posted by: Amanda on 01/27/2012 @ 10:54 am:
The majority of name calling I have recieved is from women I work with. Yet if I am really that awful then why do men I work with have no problems with me?
I expected her to pony up and do her job, but when I did she would spend hours whining to her boss about how mean I was to her. When MY boss (male) said the exact same thing to her she rushed to comply.
I think a lot of women expect there to be this universal sisterhood and we are all supposed to get along/prefer each other because we are all women. When that doesn’t happen the offender is punished for it and labeled a *beep*
I am not at work to be liked by everyone, I am at work to do my job. It seems I get talked about a lot more for having that attitude than a lot of my male counterparts do.
Posted by: MoAnScan on 01/27/2012 @ 11:23 am:
I have worked for both. I think it depends on the employee’s personality as to how they interpret the actions of the boss.
My female boss didn’t welcome suggestion. My male boss encouraged it. Personally, I prefer a man. I like the masculinity of it; how he takes control of the situation. Not sure if that whole “take control thing” stems from how I feel about how things are handled in the bedroom but it’s how I feel. LOL!
I am a woman and I was a supervisor to a few teams of people. I think I was hard to work for. I was absolutely not trained to be a Supervisor; it was a matter of seniority. I agree with a previous post, it takes a certain type of person to be a Supervisor. I failed as a Supervisor because I was trying hard to not be approachable. I wasn’t there to be their friend. I got things done but I did not create any lasting friendships with employees. In the end I ended up being that female boss that I did not like working for.
OK..great topic but I gotta get back to work or my boss is gonna kill me. Just kidding!
Posted by: Female Teacher on 01/27/2012 @ 11:41 am:
As a teacher, I have worked for both a male and female principal as well as for a male and female superintendent. I would have to agree that the males were far easier to work for than the females. Both genders had pros and cons, but the males were WAY easier to work for. In our elementary school only three out of 43 teachers are male. I can tell you that when I did work with a male in our grade level, he brought a sense of balance to our team. I think that Amy made very good points in that while, no one can make generalizations about one gender or the other, there are certainly tendencies that occur with males and females. Great discussion and blog!!
Posted by: Dawnetta on 01/27/2012 @ 3:05 pm:
It is interesting to hear from a teacher perspective! If there is one career that should level the playing field in this discussion, it’s teaching, yet, surprisingly, it does not. Even though it is a predominantly female profession, men often end up in the leadership roles.
Posted by: Amy Grace on 01/27/2012 @ 4:09 pm:
That’s so true, Dawnetta! Why is that?!
Posted by: Dawnetta on 01/28/2012 @ 10:36 pm:
I think that among the MANY contributing reasons; as enlightened as many of us feel, “working moms” are most often responsible for taking off work for sick kids etc. and it makes it harder to commit to greater responsibility at work (you don’t often hear the phrase “working dads”). I also think that it is a little bit easier as a woman to be content with your current position, overall men face a lot of pressure to advance and get promoted.
Posted by: Kathy Joyce on 01/27/2012 @ 11:51 am:
Actually, I never thought about the sex of my bosses. My best boss was a woman, and yes, she was demanding, but it made me produce better work. Kudos to Tracy zaiss.
Posted by: Amy Grace on 01/27/2012 @ 12:13 pm:
But Kathy, demanding is something I can appreciate. It’s all the other nonsense, some women bring to the table. And yes, some men too!
Posted by: Man all the way on 01/27/2012 @ 12:51 pm:
I like to have men for bosses. I had a female boss who made my life and the lives of my co-workers miserable. All the catty stereotypical things attributed to women- she did them all! All of the male bosses I have had have been evenkeeled and don’t play favorites like the women bosses I have had.
Posted by: Lisa Andrews on 01/27/2012 @ 3:52 pm:
What bothers me is the stero typing of behaviors. God made it possible for men and women to be equally, but differently poorly behaved, ill-mannered, incompetent, unsympathetic, ego-centered, ill tempered, uncompatible, demanding, unrelenting etc. When I began my life in the full-time work force in 1980…yes, I said 1980 we had clients. Some of the clients wanted to work with men, and some wanted to work with women. It had nothing to do with the abilities of their account manager, but rather about their own comfort level in working men or women. It said volumes about them. From this I can draw the conclusion that women who hate to work for or with women or vice versa have their own “issues” and can’t see that it takes 2 people to have an incompatible relationship…not just one. I’ll take a great boss man or woman.
Posted by: Amy Grace on 01/29/2012 @ 1:02 pm:
Lisa, I have to disagree with you on women having “their own issues.” I think it’s possible, and while I will say I’m not a perfect person, or always a perfect employee – I make it a priority to be conscientious about my work, my deadlines and my professional relationships. And the fact that the women I refer to had problems with the entirety of their staff, to me, only proves my point even more. If it were just me that were at odds with my supervisors, I would think it fair to reevaluate my own behavior, but that hasn’t been the case in the positions I’ve held thus far.
Posted by: Jocelyn on 01/27/2012 @ 4:23 pm:
Hi Amy,
I came across this post (which stirred up a lot of controversy) in which you referenced my post on the same topic. Your style is awesome and I found myself spending an hour exploring. Love the sense of community you have created. I am still growing as a blogger and look to bloggers like your for inspiration. Keep up the great work. Hope to stay connected. BTW, this topic generated a lot of buzz for me too.
Posted by: Amy Grace on 01/29/2012 @ 12:49 pm:
Jocelyn, thank you for you visiting Momaha! And thanks for your own take on the matter, which I thought was an emtremely good hypothesis as to why men and women behave the way they do in the workplace. It does seem to be a hot topic! Best of luck in the blogging world – I very much appreciate the purpose of your blog!!
Posted by: Angie T on 01/27/2012 @ 5:00 pm:
I have worked for both, and had good and bad experiences with both. There are so many factors to consider, I don’t think it’s fair for anyone to say, all across the board, which is easier to work for. It comes down to a matter of preference for the employee, and there’s nothing wrong with that…so long as they do their job.
Posted by: Anonymous (wink, wink) on 01/27/2012 @ 10:07 pm:
I have worked with “the good ol’ boys” and for women, and while neither were great, I prefer men. In my current situation, my bosses (both females) despise me. I am constantly given average rating in things (Interpersonal skills) that I more than excel at. So incredibly annoying to be told during a review about things that have absolutely NOTHING to do with my job description, and everything to do with my personality, which is sparkling I may add. The only way I can make sense of it is that because I don’t play the social game the same way they do, they see me as suspicious. I have long since given up trying to change their perspective of me, so I smile…..I act bubbly….and generally keep them confused as to how I can be constantly bashed and yet have a great attitude.
Posted by: Lisa Andrews on 01/28/2012 @ 8:25 am:
Funny…I like your keep em confused attitude…LOL. Sounds like you are playing “the game”…on your terms.